|  Author | Topic: No Nobel for "insular" and ignorant Americans (Read 265 times) |
birdofprey
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Karma: 3 |  | No Nobel for "insular" and ignorant Americans
« Thread Started on Sept 30, 2008, 7:14pm » | ![[Quote]](http://s2.images.proboards.com/buttons/quote.gif "[Quote]") |
Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete
By MALIN RISING and HILLEL ITALIE, Associated Press Writers
Tue Sep 30, 4:06 PM ET
STOCKHOLM, Sweden - Bad news for American writers hoping for a Nobel Prize next week: the top member of the award jury believes the United States is too insular and ignorant to compete with Europe when it comes to great writing.
Counters the head of the U.S. National Book Foundation: "Put him in touch with me, and I'll send him a reading list."
As the Swedish Academy enters final deliberations for this year's award, permanent secretary Horace Engdahl said it's no coincidence that most winners are European.
"Of course there is powerful literature in all big cultures, but you can't get away from the fact that Europe still is the center of the literary world ... not the United States," he told The Associated Press in an exclusive interview Tuesday.
He said the 16-member award jury has not selected this year's winner, and dropped no hints about who was on the short list. Americans Philip Roth and Joyce Carol Oates usually figure in speculation, but Engdahl wouldn't comment on any names.
Speaking generally about American literature, however, he said U.S. writers are "too sensitive to trends in their own mass culture," dragging down the quality of their work. . . . http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080930/ap_en_ot/eu_nobel_literature;_ylt=ApZeFWVK.p14.gNzQQyJWTas0NUE
I actually agree with that last statement. We are too engrossed in are own rather young culture, and losing the universal message so often found in great writing.
Btw, if this has been addressed somewhere on the site, please forgive me.
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William
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« Reply #1 on Sept 30, 2008, 7:25pm » | |
we're channeling one another tonight. i cross-posted at AS at the same time you posted this.
i disagree with your conclusion, only because i think it's a broadbrush statement that overlooks a great deal of american literature that is not dragged down by popular culture.
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birdofprey
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« Reply #2 on Sept 30, 2008, 7:51pm » | |
So sorry!! I should have known.
I don't know, William. It's insulting and certainly a generalization, but he does have a point. Seriously, some of the writing I've see touted as great from the American point of view, is well. . . not so great. Perhaps it's a question of taste.
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William
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« Reply #3 on Sept 30, 2008, 7:57pm » | |
i'm not about to defend every piece of tripe that comes out of american publishing houses, but i see this statement in the broader perspective of european elitism, and a prevailing attitude that a nation of writers should be judged by the basest elements of its pop culture.
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birdofprey
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« Reply #4 on Sept 30, 2008, 8:05pm » | |
Perhaps he's reacting to American world cultural domination, and if he's resentful, he's understandably so, if, for example, it takes a Brit to publish a book that Random House withdrew for fear of its "life," while Americans gladly export all kinds of superficialities and call them art and lit. You have to admit, the world often follows.
Well, no, you don't have to "admit." My opinion. Arrogance not intended.
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William
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« Reply #5 on Sept 30, 2008, 8:07pm » | |
i think that's exactly what's happening, and i think it's a valid topic of discussion. but to make it seem as immutable and pervasive is bigotry of the highest order.
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birdofprey
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« Reply #6 on Sept 30, 2008, 9:03pm » | |
It is pervasive, William.
Let me ask you something: have you seen a descent in the quality of writing since say the prime of Baldwin or Styron, Capote, Roth or even Tom Wolfe? I mention those because they were/are heralded in their lifetime as great writers. They weren't worried about commercial viability, and yet they were commercially viable.
That's darn rare now, William. I'd say eighty percent of the writers I talk to now are looking for a hook to engage an increasingly, frankly, ignorant public. That public wants either practical self-help, gossip or some extraordinary saga that's so simply written that they can finish it while the flight attendant is announcing last call.
My experience with Europeans in general is that they are very well connected to their artists and writers in a way that Americans are not. And European artists and writers are encouraged, are a point of pride, even if they're broke. It's hard to explain, but I believe it has to do with equal emphasis on the arts in education.
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William
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« Reply #7 on Sept 30, 2008, 9:19pm » | |
but do you not see that roth and wolfe (both still alive and producing) are the victims of this? (i'll also include delillo who, while not my cup of tea, is a brilliant writer) they're lumped in with dan brown, to use your example.
look, i'm not arguing that america hasn't mastered the art of disseminating intellectual junk food. it most certainly has.
what i am saying is that, for a man in his position and of his influence, he is being highly irresponsible in generalizing to that broad degree.
had he said that there is a growing trend in america that would endanger its literary evolution, i would agree and stand with him in calling for better quality and devotion to the higher aspirations of art.
but he didn't.
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birdofprey
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« Reply #8 on Sept 30, 2008, 9:26pm » | |
Yeah, O.K. I can agree with that. But I also firmly believe that we need a very strong liberal arts program in schools. I think it's imperative that the young appreciate all that's gifted intellectually and can give them a lifetime of something more rewarding than the latest footwear.
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William
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« Reply #9 on Sept 30, 2008, 9:39pm » | |
i think, as you alluded to earlier, it's conflated with a sort of trendy america bashing that's worsened over the last decade for a variety of reasons, some deserved and some not.
we're an easy cultural whipping boy, and i'm not proud of some of the crap we produce. but we're not a society devoid of the ability to create art.
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birdofprey
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« Reply #10 on Sept 30, 2008, 9:55pm » | |
I think I better save this response for tomorrow.
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bartholomew
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« Reply #11 on Sept 30, 2008, 11:00pm » | |
This says far more about the European literati than it ever will about US authors.
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jamie
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« Reply #12 on Oct 1, 2008, 7:04am » | |
Sept 30, 2008, 9:03pm, birdofprey wrote:
Let me ask you something: have you seen a descent in the quality of writing since say the prime of Baldwin or Styron, Capote, Roth or even Tom Wolfe?
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Jeffrey Eugenides, Barbara Kingsolver, Anita Diamant, Gregory Maguire...
There's some damned fine American writing lately (oh god, please don't let any of them be Canadians.)
I have been making an effort to read more and, truthfully, it's been painful. I've cracked the covers of so many awful books in the last three years I can hardly stand it. And that is very likely reflective of our culture. It's just that we're so big. I think pure scale skews the picture.
To imply there's nothing of quality written in the U.S. is ridiculous and insulting. To say that, by comparison, our literary output suffers, well, as to the insular claim, they may have a point. Outside of a couple of Roger Morris' books, I'm not sure when I've last read a European author. And to be fair, Morris is a Brit. But again, I think think some of that can be traced back to the size of the population rather than the shunning of high-grade European literature.
It's hard to imagine what it looks like from that side of the Atlantic. I read this commentary and my back goes up in reaction to what looks like snobbery, and then I try to wonder what it looks like that translated European works don't often make any significant splash here.
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birdofprey
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« Reply #13 on Oct 1, 2008, 7:20am » | |
I think there was a time in America when we embraced out best literary minds. I'm making a contentious statement when I say that ignorance is being encouraged politically, but I think it is. I think there is a predatory element to the country's intellectual direction, fed by a force of greed that happily encourages and capitalizes on frenzied materialistic competition, while eroding, particularly through lack of funding, anything that may threaten that pursuit, i.e. the satisfactions of community, of knowledge and thought. Isolation, desperation and insecurity - all prevalent today - are the friends of false appeasements such as spending sprees, "overtaking the Joneses," overeating and general materialistic snobbery.
Old countries have such a long line of established art and lit that it gives them an identity from which to continue, It gives them a rich fabric of intellectual achievement that is constantly built upon and encouraged, except sadly communist empires like China. We started with an appreciation born from our immigrant roots and now we're losing it. Those names of yours, Jamie, are meaningless to the average person.
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jamie
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« Reply #14 on Oct 1, 2008, 7:29am » | |
You think? They're pretty mainstream, successful writers and they're very, very good.
I see what you're saying, though. I actually think this country is big enough that, as far as this discussion goes, all of these points of view are decently representative of the state of things.
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birdofprey
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« Reply #15 on Oct 1, 2008, 7:52am » | |
The point that I'm making is that intelligent mainstream is an awfully small niche in a country where good writers should be household names, as they are - from my experience - in several European countries. They were actually, not too many years ago here. Now if it's anything, it's Dan Brown.
It takes time to read a book. In adulthood that time is hard to come by. But in a country that has become so furiously materialistic, the time that could be spent by kids in exploration of libraries and museums is spent in front of the television and walking the malls in desperate search of the latest Calvin Kleins.
I mean, is that right? It's excessive, Jamie, well beyond what it was when I was a kid.
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jamie
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« Reply #16 on Oct 1, 2008, 8:02am » | |
I can't tell yet. When I was a kid, the materialism was shocking and it's difficult for me to make a comparison right now. I was very poor and my lack of things with notable labels was heavy. My daughters are in a much more comfortable financial/social situation and, so far, the pressure's been very minimal even though we don't buy brand products or vast quantities of nonsense.
The materialism seems to be shifting in focus, perhaps for the good, I don't know. Sadly, it does not seem to be in favor of artistic appreciation or even the pursuit of true, healthy leisure.
I think I'm clueless and starting to talk out of my ear. I knew this was going to happen. Sorry!
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birdofprey
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« Reply #17 on Oct 1, 2008, 8:11am » | |
No, I don't think you're clueless. I grew up in similar circumstances, so I think I can appreciate your perspective, except to say that even then, with rampant materialism on the rise, it didn't preclude a solid liberal arts foundation in the school system, which included stellar contemporary writers. And I dare say, that was true for the country.
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ddddyyyy
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